Category: the Rant Board
So, yet again Islam is in the news for all the wrong reasons. Yet again, hoards of grown men pour forth onto the streets around the world, screaming like demented maniacs for death to infidels and the head of Pope benedict XVI on a dish; and for what? Answer, for a comment which formed part of a 4000-word lecture to the students at the University of Regensberg by the holy father, daring to cast a sleight on the prophet Mohammed!
Now, let's leave the question of the rightness or wrongness of the pope's quoting this particular passage, which in context was clearly an invitation to engage in an interfaith dialogue, out of this for the moment. Let's also leave aside the apology which some of you will consider satisfactory, some of you ambiguous. Let's focus our attention only, for the moment, on the reaction to what happened.
the Turkish prime minister said that the pope's comments were inappropriate and regrettable. that's a fair enough response - a response that smacks, if I may say so, of reasonableness. However, where are all the other moderate Muslims following in the Turkish prime minister's wake? answer, nowhere at all! instead, the mad brigade is the only face of Islam we see!
But why are the maniacs still flocking to the Jihadist banner? I suggest to you that the answer is that the Muslim hierarchy, or large sections thereof, are irresponsible and intolerant. take, by way of example, the appearance of Anjam chaudry on the james Whale show last evening on Talk Sport Radio. This man, associate of Oma Bacri Mohammed, who himself was an acquaintance of Ken Livingstone, the mayor of London, until his expulsion from britain in 2005, commands a high place amongst Muslim hierarchy. he's probably the equivalent to an anglican bishop if one bears in mind that in general, Muslims are less secularised in terms of outlook than Christians. Yet this man pontificates (Forgive the choice of verb with its Popish derivations) about his ultimate aim being that britain be ruled pursuant to sharia law! This man calls for the pope to be subject to capital punishment in a so-called 'peaceful' demonstration outside Westminster Cathedral! Worst of all, this man states, and I quote, "People who insult the prophet Mohammed must know that they will pay for that"! Is it any wonder that young, vulnerable people, already having to battle against whatever prejudices exist on account of their being part of an ethnic community in the main, see a way out through a 21st century jihad if their leaders carry on in this fashion?
I may have given the impression that i was shocked in the above paragraph, but the truth is that I wasn't, for this is not the first time, is it? In 1991, the secretary general of the Muslim Council of Britain said that he would like to see Mr Rushti face the death penalty for his writing of the Satanic verses; in 2005, Oma Bacri Mohammed praised suicide bombers and refused to condemn the 7th July bombers in London, and most recently following the publication of danish cartoons of the prophet Mohammed, the maniacs were on the march again, bearing their disgusting slogans of death and destruction, wantonly inflicting damage to property and person, watched all the while by their happily impotent masters. The said masters did try, admittedly, on that occasion to organise a peaceful demonstration in Trafalgar Square, but only 900 Muslims turned up, whereas the violent demonstration the week before had drawn a crowd of some 200000!
What I'm building up to is this: do Muslims really possess arrogance in such quantities that they believe their faith is above criticism? I'm sure the majority of them don't, but then why won't you oust your masters and tell them that enough is enough? the truth is that all these nutters should no longer be tolerated, isn't it?
I've heard tired old arguments to the effect that Christians etc. have stoked the Jihad fire by purportedly demonising Islam. This is disingenuous hogwash and an example yet again of the cowardice of those who hide behind it within the Muslim religion. True, I've no more time for the religious nutcases one finds in Christianity picketing abortion clinics, for example, than I have for Sikhs who force theatre productions to be abandoned. However, the blunt truth is that neither Christians nor Sikhs, nor any other religion apart from Islam at this time, has committed itself to an admitted agenda designed to suppress democracy and Islamify the world! That is the blunt truth, alongside the equally blunt and true proposition that Islam, more than any other religion, considers itself above criticism, selectively ignores the checkered parts of its history such as the compulsory rape and pillage to which every Ottoman army was entitled in the name of allah upon successfully conquering a new territory and the stubborn refusal of Muslim nations to intervene in Bosnia to stop the slaughter of fellow Muslims (So much for the brotherhood!), and assumes a divine right to force itself on others.
Issue a fatwa against me if you must; I really couldn't care less. However, I shall say again that it is high time that all the radical Imams as well as buffoons such as Mr chaudry left our shores to pursue an existence according to Allah's holy law in a country which will permit them to do that. We, as britons, must not and shall not!
Yeah, yeah! lets send him off with a pork roast. I'm so sick of the damn muslems! there so stone age like it's amazing. last time it was a cartoon. Get a life!
More constructive interventions, perhaps. I was rather hoping that this discussion would avoid insults such as the pork roast.
Agreed with 1 2 and 4, you said everything I wanted to say but much more eliquently.
All right. I think that i have to post here and bring some light about a few things, without of course claiming to be the I know everything fellow. But, when i was 18 and soul searching, i had converted to Islam for two years. I will leave my reasons for it out of this and will also skip the part about my leaving it.
I have to agree with Mark, but i will go a bit further. I have known and continue to know many muslims who are peaceful, and respectful of other religions and who are indeed not supporting what is currently being done. This, you will find in Turkey mainly because one of the former leaders of that nation once decided to get rid of the arabic language and many of the muslim traditions. They are muslims indeed, but you rarely see a turk trying to impose his views, be it peacefully. Marocco, Algeria and Tunisia, where islam had been moderate for a long time, are now becoming more radical and are going along the lines brilliantly described above by Mark. And if I know it so well it is because we have a large maroccan population here in Belgium. It is so true that Islam is recognised here as one of the national religions, which has obliged the government to hire and pay islamic teachers in the schools for the muslim children. Several years ago, a number of those teachers have come from marocco and started working in the schools here, being radicals and totally supporting the kind of islam described by mark.
This means that my government is currently paying those teachers to tell those kids that we are their enemies. I may sound a bit drastic in this statement. however, it comes to that if you think of it. It goes as far as to see people getting daily sued for racism if something unpleasant is said about islam, while it seems to be all right to denigrate christianity or other belief systems. Furthermore, I believe that England has seen a great number of extremists coming in their country, and absolutely not prevented from it by a government with socialist tendancies. But this is not limited to England. Bush, on the very day when he attacked Afghanistan, more for the gas ressources, mind you, than to catch Bin Laden, he said that his goal was not to attack that great religion,, sending in this way, a signal to Pakistan, only too happy to support Bush on account of their conflict with India. Muslims in Pakistan, and i dare say, the vast majority of people, have supported many terrorist activities performed against India, and the last one is not very far from us. While Bush, and Blair for that matter, claim to attack terrorism and cdontinues to occupy Iraq under this false pretext, it is odd to observe that they are supporting countries that encourage, and sometimes, send terrorists to a neighbor who has no natural ressources that would interest them.
I do agree with all that has been said. Yet, I would say, it is not ouside our countries that our respective governments should try to fight, but measures would have had to be taken within our different nations where the radicals, who are increasing daily have absolutely every right to express their opinions against countries where they found refuge, officially. But practically, many of them are here to do their work in a more subtil manner, totally permitted by our governments.
Now, let something be understood. I do not condemn those of the muslims who are peaceful, tolerant, and who only try to live a decent lives. I am speaking about those whose views are the same as the extremists and already stated by Mark, so i will not repeat it.
Racism, should not be encouraged, nor should it even be tolerated. But if we as nations, had not been so tolerant towards this situation, they would never be able to express, spread and impose those views as they are, very unfortunately, successfuly doing. And so much that islam begings to be feared.
Is it not a bit alarming?
Cheers John
John in my opinion muslims have been taking advantage of the fear and paranioa so prevelant post 7/7, it's not merely alarming, but downright frightening.
yes, Goblin, frightening would be the word, i agree with you. But at the same time, it is what they want, they want us to be frightened,and consequently destabilised. And it brings us back to my point: we need not go to iraq to fight it or to Afghanistan, but within our own nations.
well, all of you have your own point on it. but however, some how, people have disuse the teaching of relagen to something that they thought it could be.
it can be true, it can be false. but there's something that probably not much people know about that, they did use alot of muslim stuff to gain people to join them for their own interest.
for example, there's an university in Asia who name themself as The International University for Islamic, the purporse is to teach or to lecture the islamic on the way of their education study with their holy book, but yet the purporse behind that uni is to train more and more terrorist.
season you're fortunate in that Malaysia is a relatively moderate Islamic state, and that says as much about Muslim countries as it does about Malaysia, for few people would describe Malaysia as moderate relative to the rest of the Christian world. I agree with the comments made by John, but Goblin I'm afraid talks a bit sensationally about this subject. However, as he shall never read my words there is no point worrying.
I'm really tired of the muslim population of britain running roughshod over this generous country..we are lap dogs to the extremists, for the 1st time in my life! I'm ashamed to be british at the pathetic lets keep them sweet attitude..Captain they have what they want on a silver platter, even blair is afraid to act for fear of upsetting them, no wonder the UK independence party does so well in elections.
Goblinian Hogwash occasionally contains pearls of a degenerated or degraded brand of wisdom. He is correct insofar as we have appeased extremism far too much, but methinks he tars Muslims all with the same brush and that's not what I'm attempting to do by way of this topic. All I want is rid of the nutters.
For once Goblin, I totally agree with you. That last post is right on the money. I haven't lived in the uK for three years now and it was bad when I left, and worse when I went on holiday there eight months ago. And there was a group of Moslem kids from London on tv, I don't remember if it was panorama or something, and this one kid who was sixteen I think, was saying very anti British sentaments and even said that he would go on Gee had against the west etc. It was sick. And noone has the balls to do anything about it. That kind of stuff should be paid attention to because if he's been brainwashed that young, he could be a real danger to innocent people.
He already is because he hates, and hate is driving the future Al Qaeda bombers.The suicide bombers of hezbollah indoctrinate 3 year olds in the west bank with anti jewish hate. I have to wonder at blair's hidden agenda? he seems to expect them just to lie down and roll over as he has done.
Ah I knew there would be a conspiracy theory thrown in before long. it's not blair's hidden agenda, it's inaction across the board. Nor is it just britain. It is happening in Europe and the US also. when we take action, moreover, it's the wrong sort of action. Guantanamo, for instance, is no help in the fight against islamic extremism.
Keeping those members of Alkeda and the talliban contained? I think it's a step in the right direction. But the question is, what to do with them all.
Here i must remind everyone that those who participated in the september 11 attack had been in Europe and in the US for training.
Guantanamo does no good Indeed we will all fed those bastards for years until a possible trial which will only send them back to jail. Fine. Well, like i said, if our respective leaders had been willing to, they could cooperate with some of the muslim communities to identify and remove those extremists whom i have siscussed above, and they would not let them stay here.
As long as they get access to the means they need to perform their acctions and as long as they can poison and some one frighten the populations by their actions and speeches or threats, then it is their first step to reach their goal.
Nothing shouyld however be done with the muslims who live their fath peacefully and who are respectable and hospitable people. But socialists governments will never do anything, and as far as bush, he won't do anything of any substance because his own war is for oil, needing the pretext of terrorism.
Guantanamo is an affront to human decency and a cause, if one is needed, for violence against those responsible for detaining the accused, who are being held sometimes, under the flimsiest of evidence.I cannot condone that or the rendition flights to secret torture camps run by the US. As much as I am sick of muslim extremists confining them in Guantanamo is inhumane and downright dangerous sooner or late it will backfire on us all.
guitargod, guantanamo is an affront to the rule of law, in direct violation of the US constitution, and contrary to the values of any western civil society that the US purports to be. The US has never had to deal with eerrorism before, so it does not know, but I can assure you that in the seventies when the British adopted a policy of internment, for eveyry IRA member we imprisoned without trial, 10 new terrorists were recruited to the cause. No, it is not even a step in the right direction, but a step that undoes all the work our forces in afghanistan and Iraq are trying to do in order to win the battle of hearts and minds. It costs lives rather than saves them. every western country, and now some of the american cabinet, is against guantanamo, and I am afraid that history will view it as a black mark against american history. Guitargod, I take your point about incapacitation being desirable, but only if it is lawful. If the US is so confident that these people are al Qa'eda or affiliated to another extremist organisation, or just extremists per se, then why are they not put on trial and duly convicted? Failing to do so for so long is merely having the effect of mimmicking the regimes that we in the west sought to displace.
Mark, i do agre with you there. And what bothers me is that the war in Afghanistan took placeright after september 11th, which is fine, but while some al Qaïda members were put in Guantanamo as well as Saddam hussain's followers, the head of that organisation or should i say network is still active. This week, i have heard that Bin Laden had died from the Typhÿd fever, but the white house did not confirm it, nor did tony blair.
My point is that if there is a trial, what will they be accused of. They were found to be fightings either with the Talibans or with Saddam, but those they have arrested would be no more than P O W and any trial of those men will lead to anything substantial, and certainly not their being detained there.
Does it mean that they should get away with it? By no means. But at the same time, have those arrested been proved to have participated in any terrorist attacks against the west? If so, what was the evidence? If not why detaining them? If not for Bush to claim, once more that he is after terrorists.
Now, i hope you will forgive this digression, mark, but i would like to ask something here.
Who, in the early eighties armed and equiped Saddam Hussain, and helped him dufing his war from Iran?
Who, in 1986 gave weapons to Iran hoping to have their hostages gack in return?
Who trained Husama Bin Laden, and consequently made his knowledge of the CIA/mmilitary techniques known to him?
Whom, again, supported Saddam Hussain in some activities regarding the elimination of some kurds in Iraq?
Why was it then convenient for the obvious authors of what I previously pointed out, to remove Saddam, for the lack of catching Bin Ladden?
Last, but not least, why did George Bush sell his oil Company to Bin Ladden's brother when it went to bancrupcy?
While I will never approve the islamic terrorism, I will not approve some of the political/financial manipulation of a certain government either. Those manipulations have been repeated many times since world war two.And why? Money,power and interests.
Cheers
John
I certainly agree with the comments and sentiments expressed by Lawlord and blackbeard.
As one who used to be a follower of islam i can fully understand why the west are afraid of the extremest people inside the religion.
However, I also think that if we are going to fight extremests, we need to do it the right way. Doing it the right way does not include taking over countries for oil, making up stories about weapons of mass destruction and imprisoning and torturing people without trial. If we are going to fight extremests, we must fight all extremests, not just islamic ones. We should be worried about more things than just terrorism. things such as North Korea and their capibilities with nuclear weaponry should be worrying us. They're practically jumping up and down saying "pick me, pick me, we have weapons of mass destruction!" and noone will pick them because they know that the North Koreans will use them.
Yes, I'm frightened, because now it's impossible to tell who is a target anymore, but i'm not just afraid of Muslim extremests, I'm afraid of people who have the wrong idea of what democracy is in the first place and people who see everyone outside of themselves as "colateral damage"
I think that religions that teach people to hate, and at such young ages are fundamentally gainst humanity itself.
However, i don't think things like the riets in sydney and general uneducated hatred will help iether.
That's right, agreed. I have a problem with all islamists in general, just look at how backwards there actions are. Now, the whole religion is savage. How about the bit in the Qur'an where they support and root for beating up your wives. Gentleman, you approve of that? They also carry no respect for the disabled community in general. And, now, Prezbo's making friends with them... Ridiculous...?
No no no no no that's not right I'm afraid. I didn't intend the discussion to go down the Nick Grifffin, British National Party path...hang on a second Pakistan have just lost another wicket. Good catch there by the New Zealand wicket-keeper. Very good catch. Pakistan are going to go on and win the game, however. well, cheers.